What is the place of MILITIA on the modern industrial music scene?

MILITIA stands for the eco-anarchist ideology, a social philosophy based upon the ideas of Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin, rearranged and converted into a modern ideology, with the additional aspect of ecology. We believe that anarchism could be the best possible answer to a society in decay. We believe that total freedom and autonomy are the main and basic foundations for a new society. Because man is a social being, we feel the need to design a new social structure with a certain natural order in which it is possible to combine the need for autonomy and the need for structure and certainty, in which solidarity and eco-awareness play a major role. We try to spread our ideas through different ways, like film and slide projections, texts and music. At this moment we're writing a book about eco-anarchism which will be released next year. The book will include a live CD as well.
The music I compose (I write my music in a combination of classical music notations and my own symbols) is industrial percussion music, mainly. Just by adopting this style of composing and playing, we find ourselves in a scene that is quite often linked to right wing ideas and neo-nazism. Well, I think this is a good challenge and it was about time these fucking right wing ideas met with a different and opposite opinion. We're fed up with people who dress themselves like little f�hrers and spit out statements they even don't understand, at least they don't seem to know what stands behind these right wing ideas. We wonder whether they lack the gift to place themselves into the misery of the victims of the nazi regime... I certainly can because my uncle died after being tortured by the collaborating "black brigade", Flemish people who joined the Germans during World War 2. He was a partizan, communist and humanist and he stood up for his ideas, by saving American pilots who were shot down.

When you demand "�no corruption, no greed, no hate" and "�freedom and justice and equality for all" (as in "Bakunin" song) how do you imagine this in practice? I think there is deep mistake in all left doctrines based on an image of some brotherhood of exceptionally moral humans - communists or anarchists. Russian communists dreamed about a beautiful new world which will no longer create any conditions for greed, hate, injustice, crimes, exploitation etc, and I can sympathize with this very much. But I also had lived considerable part of my life in USSR and had seen enough that rotten communistic "elite" more odious than the real bourgeois� There is a faithful Russian proverb - feed a wolf as long as you can, he will look back to the wood anyway. Ideal state needs ideal people. Do you believe it's even possible to improve the human race?

First of all MILITIA rejects any form of government. The ideas Marx showed the world did have very good solutions for the problems in the society he lived in, but a lot of his noble principles were "transformed" into laws and agreements that in the end only served the leading elite. We know what Stalin or even Mao did with the original Marxist theories. MILITIA stands for a society without leadership 'from above', a society that is being guided by the direct representatives of all the inhabitants of the community, based upon a constant control and discussion. To achieve this goal, we think it is absolutely necessary to re-educate the people. Showing the positive potentials we all carry inside of us, there might be a (slim) chance this kind of living-together might succeed, we don't know that yet, because eco-anarchism hasn't been 'to the test' until now.
We think it is necessary to inform the public about this form of society and to promote it, revealing its possibilities and advantages. Our book can help, but we strongly think about founding a political group concentrated around the eco-anarchic philosophy and see how far we get.

There is a sizeable group of people who rule over the world and in no case part with their authority and property but do everything to preserve the status-quo: major capitalists, bankers, media-magnates, mafia bosses and many others. Even if you scientifically or moral or what else have proven them that this is for the sake of the all humankind. Spit they on the humankind. What do anarchist propose in this situation - immediate revolution and expropriation or, judging from your intention to create a political group, the pure political and parliamentary struggle?...

Many historical anarchists have proposed the armed and violent revolution to be the only means to cast out the destructive elements and forces inherent to our sick society: capitalism, greed, wealth and property, inequality and hate...
Unfortunately the capitalist society has constructed a defense mechanism to keep in charge: the armies, the police... MILITIA is well aware that it will be very difficult, if not impossible to attack these forces and emerge victoriously in the end. We believe that the foundations of the capitalist society can be demolished by re-educating the people, by showing them the devastating effects of this society. This should be the first attack wave: informing the people and re-educating them.
As soon as the eco-anarchists aroused a general discontentment, they believe this general attitude could result in general actions of civilian disobedience, general strikes, demonstrations and protest actions.
At the same time eco-anarchists consider the sabotage of computer networks belonging to the capitalist institutions, the destruction of money and securities, the confiscation of the gold supplies and of other values, the infiltration in the armies and police and destruction of military soft and hardware. The aim is the de-construction of the existing society and the construction of a completely new one: the eco-anarchic society.

Primitive ancient society is hardly a convincing model against a background of modern highly developed, armed to the teeth and awfully aggressive formations such as United States. And they are not going to leave anyone alone. Is there a way out?

A lot of the social activities are based upon 'natural' and even instinctive motivations. For instance, our social care system is based upon the instinct, the will and the need to look after the other. Without knowing it perhaps, an important number of social activities are basically human and existed as well in prehistoric times, or are clearly distinctable in primitive societies, where no complex social structure (in many cases hindering its efficiency) is constructed around these activities (or even a bureaucratic structure).
We do not want to return to the primitive state, but use the modern technology for a higher purpose, for instance to save our environment, not to destroy it, to make people better, not to make war.

In your statement the terrorism theme was touched, though there were neither approval nor condemnation shown. So, if a state violates the most important rights of own or foreign citizens - is not justified the terror against its official representatives?

We didn't condemn nor did we approve all terrorist activities, simply because you have to look at the background and motivations of all such actions separately. You cannot compare one (violent) action with another one.
And yes, there exists state terrorism as well. And there is the right to defend yourself if your live is in danger. We believe that the eco-anarchist should be able to defend itself against threats coming from inside the society (greed, hate, corruption, murder and other crimes) as well as against a danger from outside (other states that want to destroy the eco-anarchic society because they consider this form of society to be a threat to their own system, which doesn't allow that much freedom to their people). Violence (defense) is justified when it protects the basic human rights (as indicated by the Universal Declaration of the Human Rights).

What do you think about such groups as IRA, ETA, fighting for the national liberation, or - what is more actual - Palestinian intifada? As seems, it enjoys the support of Europeans. Recently I read that American Simon Wiesenthal Centre call Jews refrain from visiting France and your country, Belgium, because of the "upgrowth of anti-Semitic attitudes " here...

If we look at the fundamental reasons those groups are fighting for, we conclude that they deal with the urge for territory, differences in religion, culture or race, but with the improving of our global way of life.
Eliminating elements such as racism, religion, property, wealth, power, and fighting against inequality, racism, hate, etc. the eco-anarchic society will be the only one that can provide a secure way of living together.

When you recognize the Universal Declaration of the Human Rights you should know that the conception of "human rights" is purely the creature of the modern individualistic Western (Anglo-Saxon) civilization. No traditional society or culture was based on or even refer to that term, instead they were built on duty, necessity, responsibility� The "rights" have to do with individual, while the "duty" apply to someone else - to other humans, family, society, nature, gods, etc. Do anarchists recognize duties? If we need the Universal Declaration of the Human Duties - which duties you would mention first of all?

The eco-anarchic moral and social life is based upon the aspect of WILL. This means that they do not believe in the obligatorious character of social care or laws. Respect for our fellow man is the basic foundation of the new approach. We consider the Universal declaration of the Human Rights to be one (good) example of collecting a series of agreements that are valid for everyone. We must replace all the religious and civil laws and rules by a series of agreements based only upon the element of respect, both for our fellow man as for nature. This series of agreements will be global and valid for everyone. These agreements imply certain "duties", a better term is necessities for a balanced life in a healthy environment

You are using an emblem, which looks similar to so-called Celtic cross. Is it? Or there is different story?

The MILITIA Logo is in fact the centre of an electric circular metal blade saw, as can be seen on the cover of our first LP "New European Order". The electric saw was used to generate sounds and we use it live on stage when performing "The Black Flag Hoisted". So at first it merely indicated our use of industrial instruments. The theme of "Nature Revealed" was using the four basic natural elements (air, water, fire and earth) and as a "fifth" element the element of symbiosis. The logo changed its meaning: it became a symbol for the four elements (the four cross like forms around the circle) and the circle itself, linking these four elements into one whole (the element of symbiosis) It became the symbol for the eco-anarchic society when it was being used on "The Black Flag Hoisted", where it was put onto the black flag and symbolizing the unity (circle) between nature and man. The four elements are here: unity, equality, solidarity and freedom. So to speak, the MILITIA logo started having a definitive meaning in the end, its meaning "evolved" the same way as did our social views.

Industrial music often is associated with right ideologies. CONSOLIDATED says: "If you don't like fascism, don't play industrial music, because that's what it's all about guys!". Not everything is so plain and clear, of course, but the lack of elements of politically correct "Afro-American" culture is obvious... This kind of music is one of the purest European creations, opposing itself to the modern "compound" culture and society. What do you think about multiculturalism? How much it complies with the theory of anarchistic communes? May there the people of different cultures, habits and creeds co-exist better than in our restless world?

Our political views are clear: the world belongs to everybody, we're all equal. We strongly oppose against any form of racism and discrimination. Our position against inequality is also one of the basic structural elements of the eco-anarchic society. It is clear that hatred and discrimination cannot be tolerated in such an open and free community. "The other is just another form of yourself". If some people abuse the industrial music style for spreading extreme right wing ideas like discrimination, racism, sexism and so on, we at least have proven that there exist other opinions and perhaps it's tactically efficient to use industrial music as a vessel for our statements and ideas: we infiltrated in the industrial music scene with a completely different point of view and hopefully we puzzled a part of the audience, hopefully we changed the minds of some. Reading comments in magazines and letters send to us, we believe we did. Our ideas met with a positive response and are regarded to be a "fresh wind" in a scene which morality seems in decay, when listening and looking at some acts/artists in this scene anyway. It would be great to see a left wing stream develop here that could whip out the ambiguous position lots of them seem to hold, or even put a stop to spreading statements full of hate against Jews or coloured people and adoring the fascist ideology.

Which friendly, ally or just interesting bands and projects would you recommend - from classics up to new ones? The labels too...

I think CON-DOM is a good example of an act that stayed far from racism and hatred. I know that a number of people may think the opposite, but I know Mike Dando for quite some time now and I know what he stands for. TEST DEPARTMENT was serving the left wing cause as well, but I haven't heard about them anymore, are they still active?
I know that R�diger Schmid who leads the Tactical Recordings label is also a man with a clear opinion and he stands fully behind our ideas about racism, discrimination and so on. The military dressed industrial audience and all the obvious symbols and the inherent macho "looking mad" pose just makes him laugh. He told me more than once that he keeps a great distance between himself and this scene, he doesn't want to have people think he's "one of them", because he isn't. He very rarely visits concerts, and only when MILITIA is playing.

I must admit your list is rather short... Also it seems, neither CON-DOM nor Tactical label scorn to deal with people from the another "camp". For example, first time I have heard CON-DOM was his track on Natural Order compilation in the milieu of well-known "right-wingers". And Tactical products is widely distributed by Tesco...

I really don' t know that Mike has contributed to this compilation, perhaps he wanted to propose a different point of view to the public that buys the Natural Order stuff? You better ask him what his intentions were regarding this subject, I know him to be a leftist green boy. he helped translating our manifest on eco-anarchism and he stood behind the majority of the ideas espoused in it.
As for Tactical, well, R�diger (their manager) knows our projects very well and stands fully behind them. I think Tactical just wants to make money, whatever the bands in their catalogue say or stand for.
Personally I dislike the military dressed and fascist looks of the scene, and I think the right wing ideas and opinions that may be alive here are totally wrong to say the least.

What about your MEKANORGANIK project? Which are the differences and similarities - musical, conceptual, etc - between it and MILITIA?

MEKANORGANIK is a side project which enables us to find a way of working with more experimental forms of sound. Until now we've produced one mini-CD containing 3 tracks (one with the collaboration of an Alaskan Indian and the others with the help of an Algerian girl) but we didn't release it yet because of lack of time and not yet the right label found. This project doesn't contain the political and social views of MILITIA.

Which political groups MILITIA does support?

We support the Animal Liberation Front, several underground anarchist groups, mainly in Holland and we maintain a good contact with people all over the world who share the about the same ideas about society and environment as we do. In our book we will print names and contact addresses.

Animal Liberation Front� Maybe you are vegetarians also?

Yes, we are! It is impossible to use animals on an industrial scale for consumption without abusing them. So we reject the use of animals for consumption. Do you eat human flesh? I don't think so. So why eat our brothers and sisters? We strongly believe that animals and men share the same rights. They are beautiful creatures, they have the right to live unharmed, unthreatened by men. Furthermore it is proved that all the necessary nutritional elements can be found in vegetarian food. So why condemn the animal to death? Why torture them any longer? MILITIA supports the Animal Liberation Front amongst other eco-anarchic activity groups. Gaia is another very well known Belgian animal liberation activity group that can count on our support.

Vegetarianism is not the only diet the Mother-Nature had invented and provided. Hunting and fishing carnivores are as prevalent as herbivores. And if we take a look into primitive societies, especially savage ones - they eat everything what is running and stirring. In our society, the vegetarianism is determined by excessively complicated moral, by guilt complex or compassion feeling rather than by real necessity. Is the vegetarianism an obligatory component of your system or you would let it on the conscience of every single person?

People do distinct themselves from animals because they have a moral opinion and are able to see the consequences of their behaviour. When we notice the abuse of animals, the cruel treatment of beautiful creatures that are on this planet for the only reason to be consumed or used for our purposes, we feel very bad. Deep inside we must all know that what we're doing to these animals is totally wrong. So why continue this behaviour? This is what we mean with re-educating the people: show them what's really going on and trying to change their behaviour and way of living. Vegetarianism is a healthy alternative.

Do you receive any kind of backing from the political groups you support?

Yes, we do. For instance, we had the support of anarchic groups and artists on "The Black Flag Hoisted" CD, and we intend to open a discussion forum on the internet regarding this subject as soon as our web-site is finished. I'm sure that anarchists and environmental activists from all over the world will contact us, it happens even now, and the use of internet will enforce all of this.

I wonder why you did not find yet a common language with certain heathen groups? Their views on the nature as a temple, wherein a human being's role is to serve creatively, their passion for the archaic and eco-concerned way of life - all this seems to be very close to your own, not taking into account the terminology and rhetoric they use...

I'm sure that people who share more or less the same ideas as we do will contact us. Our web-site will be a useful tool to do so. It should become a central point for new ideas and discussion. Theories can be compared and discussed. Plans for a new society can be designed. We expect a lot of this initiative.

I'm sure some common anarchist seminars and forums, where problems, theory and current tactics questions are discussed, should take place in Belgium and Europe regularly. Do MILITIA members join such events? If so, which are the most important topics discussed now? Today's agenda in anarchist movement?

The anti-globalism, the abuse of animals, the animal liberation acts, the pollution of our environment, the inequality between North and South, the devastating influence of big capitalist organizations and companies, the difference between rich and poor...

Well. Stigmata's agenda should be your musical works. Why is nearly each release by MILITIA double or triple CD/LP?

Our albums are volumetric because we have a lot to say. Our ideas cover a long period in history and we have a well-structured opinion about the future. All our ideas have to find a place on the albums, so we needed to compose volumetric albums in order to find space for our ideas.

It's an interesting moment. I would not say I was able to catch too much ideas directly from your music - these were rather images, some understandable and common, some quite alien - especially in "Nature Revealed"� The art itself is dealing mostly with images and symbols; being filled with an ideology it turns into propaganda posters or official hymns, for example. In any case, there are only some abstract images inside having quite distant relations with reality, with life� What do you think the people, which buy your records or visit your concerts, are searching for - certain answers, or just fun, an entertainment? If to remember your participation in Stigma festival in London - there was nearly the same public which joined VON THRONSTAHL as well as your performance�

Well, it's curious, but each MILITIA concert is followed by discussion; each time we've played live somewhere, people who've seen us come to the backstage room or await us at the bar and ask us about our social views... This surely proves that a greater part of the audience knows what we stand for, and they seem to agree with our ideas. We like this very much: not only our music seems to reach the audience, but our ideas can be explained afterwards as well. It's great to notice that a greater part of the audience see the difference between bands like VON THRONSTAHL or DEAD IN JUNE and MILITIA. It would be great if they left their right wing like military outfit at home and come with an open mind and a positive attitude (meaning they would stand clearly against racism and discrimination) to the concerts. If done so, several bands would be 'seen through' and lose respect and support.

Maybe. Returning to the CDs, what is the meaning of the Nature Revealed tracks titles? What language is it at all?

We dedicated this album to the four basic natural elements, being air, water, fire and earth. We revealed the possibilities of the natural forces and the clear structures of the primitive societies. We also wanted to incorporate a primitive language. We contacted several linguistics of the National Museum of African Arts and the Museum of Roman-Gallic History. They supported us by showing what vocal sounds could have been produced by the prehistoric men. So they designed vocal "sounds" and we combined them into a "language". The "words" that are being sung on the album may have no meaning for the listeners, but this doesn't mean that they don't have a meaning for us: we do have a message, and we believe you all know that what it is. It is a kind of primitive and basic language that should appeal to everyone. In our eco-anarchic social model we see the need for a universal language. Why not use this primitive language for that purpose?

Really� Which more plans MILITIA has?

A new CD, called "Everything is One", which will be released in 2002 by Tactical Recordings in Germany. It will be sort of conclusion and a view into the future. 5 hope concert organizations will be curious about us now and put us on their "wanted" list. We just love it to perform, but main problem is that we carry about 22 musical objects, some of them quite big like empty oil barrels, metal plates, a concrete mill, a radiator and so on, so mostly heavy metal objects we use as percussion instruments. We're a six members band, so this also brings about some problems now and then.

As for your views for the future - is it gloomy image or a ray of hope shines? Especially as regards the ecology - today it only remains to set hopes upon the science and technology, which already made all the possible to put the environment on the eve of global catastrophe.

Well, we're quite positive because we can show an alternative. When we watch the efforts and the results of environmental activity groups we get the feeling that there is some change of attitude right now. Belgium has dealt with a lot of scandals lately, amongst them also environmental scandals like the intoxication of cattle and chickens with PCB's and the hormone scandals linked to the meat industry. It shows that people are well aware of what's going on and that they want to see a total change here.
Giving more information and revealing the basic intentions of the meat industry could lead to the tendency that more and more people would turn to vegetarianism or even veganism. Eco-awareness is something that has to be taught, so it'll be a process of re-education. The potential of science and technology can also be directed towards the defense of nature if we give more attention to the need of preserving and saving our environment. In our book we speak about the development and importance of eco-sciences, eco-industries and eco-agriculture.

The eco-awareness can be a serious obstacle to the scientific and social progress. For example, tests on animals entail the break in pharmacology, medicine, biology and all adjacent spheres, including the cloning technologies which sound fantastic but quite tempting at the same time. A small commune can supply itself with electricity through wind or solar electric power station, but every serious industry needs heat-and-power or atomic engineering, which negative effects may be finally eliminated after hundreds years only. And so on� Would you rise in opposition to certain currents of science and technology?

First of all, modern science doesn't invest enough money in the development of alternative forms of research. It's much easy and cheaper to use animals instead. We believe (and there are facts that show this as well) that there exist very useful alternatives for vivisection and that a lot more can be found if one just wants to. But as said, there lies the problem: why should the scientific industry spend more money on this topic and not focus on more profit?
A great deal of our diseases are caused by our way of living: 35 % of all cancers is caused by the way we eat and drink, 30 % by smoking, 15% by pollution and chemicals in food and environment. So to speak, caused by our own fault. A drastic chance in the way we live and treat our environment would diminish the number of diseases enormously.
About the conventional industries: well, they are one of the causes of a lot of modern diseases because of the pollution they cause. How much money does one need now to clean the Earth do you think? What if these costs were calculated into the prices of energy and goods? How economic would all of the conventional energy forms still be? As soon as the conventional power resources would have dried out, men will immediately find other resources, such as water for fuel, solar power ands so on.
MILITIA write in their eco-anarchic manifest that they stand for a balanced collaboration between nature and the human society; we want to share the same rights for both men and animals; this leads to a different approach regarding our environment and all the living creatures that inhabit it. It leads to re-education of the public; it leads to a different overall view. Whether we accept it or not. If we do not accept this, we must be well aware that we are endangering our environment, and thus endangering ourselves. There is no question of believing it or not, or accepting it or not, these are the naked facts!

Is suicide a solution?

No, of course not, by no means!

Have you something to add for Stigmata readers?

Yeah, we're planning to make a web-site and this will definitely include a discussion forum. We would be very pleased to receive all of your questions, they will be very useful. We know that our label will only release about 1000 copies of our next CD (as they did with all our previous CD's, resulting in a complete sold out) so we've decided (accordingly to our "everything belongs to everyone" statement) that we'll put all our works on this web-site, free to download.
Our best greetings to all of you, hope to see you at one of our concerts, don't hesitate to have a beer and a good chat with us!